wireless is limitless. this is "piers morgan live." welcome to our viewers in the united states and around the world. dzhokhar tsarnaev should be tortured to save more lives. his initial court appearance was today in his hospital room, he

could only speak one work, no, when asked if he could afford an attorney. he now has a public attorney, he is mentally competent and lucid. degree development for the investigators, he is able to cooperate and he appears to be listed. what does he come up with today? >> most important and the national security scope is the fact that he is apparently telling officials and this is from a government source that it was just he and his brother, that there was nobody else involved, that there was no foreign entity telling them what to do or communicating with them in any way. in effect, they were virtual self jihadists, he has said his brother was the ringleader of all of us. but like you said, there really are going to need to check everything and they have been.

they have them all along checking who they talk with, what kind of communications they have their e-mails. trying to figure out not only if they were self radicalized but how, which websites did they go to, who did they listen to, what takes did they have. it seems to go with what the investigators have been telling us this week that they believe that this entire plot was perpetrated by two brothers, one of samizdat and one of them is now in custody in a hospital here in boston. >> this information about getting out of him, can these is in a criminal case against him? >> based on a complaint that was filed in federal court that we got today, i don't know how much of that they will need. we don't know when exactly the information that he gave to them was given. we really don't know how it was given, was it written down, just yes and no answers he was able

to not or blank or turned his head. if it was given prior to the reading of his miranda rights, it would probably be unlikely they would use that against him in court. if it was used voluntarily afterwards, likely he would. about the fact he has lawyered up, most likely we could send the information probably came prior to his reading of the miranda rights. we don't know that right now. >> thank you very much indeed. an extraordinary court session took place inside his hospital room. a transcript of that hearing tonight that tells us about the accused bomber and the case. jason, tell us what happens, it is fascinating. >> it really is and it is an nine page transcript we got hold of. what i can tell you is this proceeding lasted about ten or 15 minutes, started about 11:30 this morning.

all of the key figures came into the hospital room and all of them introduce themselves. you had the u.s. judge there and attorneys from both sides. a court reporter there as well. and everyone present wanted to make sure that he knew exactly what was going on, know about the charges that he is facing. let me read you some of the key sections from the transcript. it starts out saying i am the magistrate judge and this hearing is your initial appearance before the court. we are here because you have been charged in a federal criminal complaint. at this hearing i will advise you of your constitutional and legal rights and i will tell you about the charges against you and the penalties that the court could impose if you are found guilty. if you have been charged, you have been charged with a weapon of mass destruction and in violation of 18, united states code, section 2322, and

malicious destruction of property resulting in death. in violation of 18, united states code, section 844. the death penalty, if he is convicted, then the judge goes on to say is that anytime i see something you do not understand, interrupt me and say so. is that clear? and then the defendant not. the court then goes on to say all right. i know the defendant has not affirmatively. as a first dip in the seering i will tell you about your constitutional rights. you have the right under the constitution of the united states to remain silent. in a statement may be used against you in a court of law and have the right not to have your all the words used against you. you may consult with an attorney prior to any questioning and you may have the attorney present during questioning. during the entire proceeding, the only time we actually heard the defendant speak was when the subject came up about an

attorney kurt the judge says to you understand i have said everything to you about your right to remain silent and there comes a not. and the defendant says no, the court says let the record reflect that i believe the defendant has said no. once again as you say, the court also answer to the record that he was mentally competent and he also appeared to be listed despite his injuries. >> how much more can they get out of him? how long can they talk to him? is there any legal limit or can this go on? >> it can't go on. normally what happens is the next legal step will be the arraignment. during the arraignment that is when he is formally charged and also remember even though he is looking at the charges of using a weapon of mass destruction there are other charges he could be faced with as well and will

likely face in the next coming days. obviously, charges relating to the officer, the carjacking, things of this matter could be presented within the next few days but the next legal step, that is going to be the iran and. where he is formally charged and that usually happens within ten days of the first appearance. >> thank you. this raises questions about the law and how someone should be treated. the republican state senator is abdicating torturing him as that could save lives. >> welcome to you. you tweeted this, you said in custody, who would use torture on hand to save more live? do you still believe that? >> at the end of the day, i think you interview lot of politicians. a lot of politicians are full of

fear and scared to say what they feel. i say for a lot of americans if we could believe or we could save evil one more american life, they would use this, they would use every tool at their disposal to do so. >> he is an american citizen. dzhokhar tsarnaev. key committed this crime in boston and he will be tried in a u.s. civilian criminal court system care our you going to torture him? >> you were talking to a guy that supports the death penalty for cop killers, terror is. >> how would you torture and? >> i am talking about me. if you want to talk to the president of the united states about his policy. >> you can ask in. >> i enders stand. if you put me in the ramp with any of them, i am telling you what i would do. >> i understand. if you talk torture on an

american citizen for doing a domestic crime in america, you are crossing a rubicon. >> to answer your question, what would you do if you're given the opportunity? you have 30 minutes in the room, what would you do? would you play cards? >> let me put it to you. >> if you that this guy before he killed these people and turned people into amputees, what would you do? this man killed innocent men, women and children. what would you do? you get paid for it. >> you are on my show because she tweeted this to the world. your behavior so far is really offensive. >> you don't like it when you don't have another ball and you can treat like a tower? the reality is these men killed innocent men, women and children and as a red letter american, i

say it out there if it would save an innocent life would not torture him. i stand firmly that i would. >> here's the point i am making to you. do you realize that if you torture this man, why you are facing an endorsing this that torture of an american citizen committing a domestic crime inside america. u.s. a politician want to bring that and as a standard matter of practice in your country. yes or not? >> i am saying that as an individual. >> yes or no? >> if given the opportunity to be in a row with somebody like obama bin laden, it would be me and him and a baseball bat. if i want to be macho, i challenge you to an arm wrestling contest. i am telling you how i feel. 100 times over, i will give you the same answer. >> if we could keep this as simple as possible, quite difficult currently. this will change everything if

you start to torture american citizens for committing domestic crimes inside america. am i wrong? >> you are not wrong. im as red blooded american as anybody and i go back to thomas jefferson who wanted to change the fifth amendment, which has complicated language about self-incrimination. he wanted an outright vote against torture under all circumstances. torture is unconstitutional, illegal, in violation of every international treaty. should never under any circumstances be used. where i agree with him and said it would be used if we had a ticking bomb terrorist case. if we actually had a situation where the choice was between letting the bomb go off and killing thousands of people or torturing somebody, every president what allow, even this president, would not stop torture from occurring if that could save many, many lives. >> he kept guantanamo bay open,

originally having said he would close it. >> we know the prime minister of australia said he would do it. very many political figures given that choice. that choice almost never presents itself certainly in a case like this where recaptured two people. no evidence it goes beyond this. the use of torture in a situation like this is absurd and unacceptable. >> if you open it up, the theatrics is good and did is what it is. you did open up the shows saying the senator asks for torture. the tweet was specific. if it would save american lives. if you could imagine, if you could have been with them and stop them and torture what have worked. could it have been effective?

certainly. >> let's take a break. the mine sting for that? you have had a lot to say. let's talk a little more after the break. we will be back with this after the break. man: how did i get here? dumb luck? or good decisions? ones i've made. ones we've all made. about marriage. children. money. about tomorrow. here's to good decisions. who matters most to you says the most about you. at massmutual we're owned by our policyowners, and they matter most to us. ready to plan for your family's future? we'll help you get there.

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i have been informed that the obama administration has indicated this suspect in boston will not be treated as an enemy combatants. i strongly disagree with the obama administration's decision to rollout enemy combatants

status for this suspect at this time. >> sticking around for the second part of our debate, he fled with his tail between his legs. senator lindsey graham and senator talked about obama not try him as an enemy combatants. it was said to see him go, he was a fine figure and a state senator, isn't it? >> al a high state legislature is much more sophisticated than we saw here today. >> let's talk about lindsey graham. sang the government should have left dzhokhar tsarnaev as an enemy combat and, at least on the table as a possibility. >> it is not permissible under the law. you cannot treat an american citizen who is accused of committing an american crime against mostly american citizens

in boston as an enemy combatants. it would turn our country -- >> it has never happened before. >> into martial law. the supreme court struck that down and american citizens were charged with crimes and this fellow is being charged with an ordinary crime that anybody could be charged with the team made a bomb to kill his mother-in-law. it does not require any allegation of terrorism. the idea we can deny and trial by jury, speedy trial, all of the things in the constitution and the bill of rights provides would turn our country into a nation of martial law. >> would be different if his brother survived because he was not a citizen? he was here on a green card as a long-term resident. >> he could have been deported. we treat permanent residents as american persons and their subject to generally the same protections as american citizens. he had a closer connection

possibly to jihadist abroad. if we are hearing an accurate subscription of what he is saying, very significant because it means he is probably not going to put on a jihadist defense. i am proud and i want to be a martyr to join my brother in paradise. sounds like he is cooperating, maybe my big brother made me do it and he will want to live. maybe you'll want to trade whatever information he has for the possibility of a life sentence. he does not have much to try, he has already said there is no foreign connection. it would be hard to say if you say my life i will tell you about it. >> he and his brother, his brother is dead. the evidence is overwhelming of all of this stuff he put out there today from the fact that they have video surveillance showing them at the bomb site and they have a match to the explosive material in the car they hijacked. fingerprints and so on. >> in addition to the person whose car they hijacked they have an ironclad case.

he is 19 years old, he has an innocent looking face. he has a good record in high school. all you need is one jury in boston who is strongly opposed to the death penalty to vote against the death penalty. that may be the tactic he and his newly appointed lawyer from a very excellent public defender system may come up with. >> the government has not said it wants the death penalty. they have to formally announce this, how does it work? >> there is an internal process. it ends up on the desk of the attorney general and he gets recommendations. and he is going to hear two size, he will hear young and inexperienced, no prior record. on the other hand he will say look at this video. he is putting it down knowing it will kill the children that are standing nearby and i think the latter will prevail and i

predict they will seek the death penalty. >> a fascinating case. >> it may end up not with a bang but a win for. it may end up with a plea bargain and it may end up with simply a plea for mercy. probably not even tried in boston. it will be tried may be in springfield or some other city outside there. so many were personally affected by this. it may be the foreplay, the foreplay may be more interesting than what happened in the at actual trial. >> if something comes to light from the ongoing fbi investigation, that suggests that dzhokhar is lying, that there was a link to militants in chechnya, where we know his brother, tamerlan, possibly made a couple of visits there, if that emerges, now that he has had his miranda rights, does the government have powers to go back in and start to interrogate

him? >> yes. they have the power to do it. whether it would be a proper under the law, is an open question. they couldn't use any of the material that they illicited from him, but maybe they don't need it. they may also reindict him. >> well, they wouldn't use the inform in the criminal case against him but could use it to get to a wider group. >> oh no question. can you use it against anybody else. you only can't use it against this defendant. and they may be able to obtain such information. and if so, they might reindict him under the terrorist statute. it is a little odd that everybody regards this guy as a terrorist except the united states government. which has indicted him under ordinary murder statute that carries the death penalty. but often we see a second indictment following the first indictment, if more information comes forward. once he get's a lawyer and he says to his lawyer, by the way, i lied to the authorities. i really know a lot more, the lawyer might say, that's your

best ammunition. why don't we now tell the federal government we really have more information and try to use that as leverage. >> thank you very much. >> thank you. >> coming up, friends of accused bombers. did they see any warning signs before the attacks? . çtoooowl

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we need that. >> a family friend, luis vazquez. austin hightower is a student at university of massachusetts and dartmouth and knows julian, tamerlan's sparring partner. let me start with you austin,some of dzhokhar's friend have been saying in the last week they cannot understand what on earth happened to make him do this, that he was a good guy. a friendly guy. a normal guy. you've heard all this all week. there must have been some sign to some of his friends, surely. that something wasn't quite right. >> mr. morgan, the only thing i can think of is we add conversation probably two months ago, i saw him in the dining hall. he looked a bit detached from when i had seen him before. probably a week or two before that. he looked a bit sadder.

i can't really think of why that may be. perhaps because of his friends that didn't come back second semester. and so i saw him a lot less. but i know he was a bit more detached from reality when i saw him not too long ago. >> you lived in the dorm building next to his. and you actually helped him move in, in his freshman year. what was he like in those early days? >> he was nice, funny. i had seen him walking around campus with his friends. he played basketball. he even played intramural soccer here. i can't imagine that someone like the guy i met last summer is being accused of these horrid things. >> from all that you read, the implication people are putting on this, and apparently he himself is making this claim to investigators now, is that it was his brother who put all the pressure on him and turned him.

did you know his brother? did you ever meet him? >> no, i never knew he had a brother. but it does seem to make the most sense, considering knowing who he was and how he was for two years, yeah. >> now when the fbi released the images of the suspects on thursday, you actually went to dzhokhar's facebook page. it was deleted. you went to twitter and saw his cryptic tweets. was that an alarm for you? >> yes. once i saw it was the missing brown student, i went back to the pictuture on-line and postei think i know this guy but i hope i don't. about five minutes later there were u-mass officers outside my door asking me question. >> were they monitoring your facebook? >> no. i mentioned it to my roommate.

i said, i think i know him. we lived next to him last year. he said, tell the fbi. well, i said, i know who he is and so i don't think he is the guy. and besides they said it is the gy from brown university. so i left it at that. i assume that someone heard our conversation and told the u-mass police. >> and after that they shut down the school and we know what happened next. austin hightower, thank you for joining me. >> any time. thank you. >> now to julian pollard. you were a boxer and roomed with tamerlan during tournament. what was he like? >> well, during that trip, i noticed tamerlan was a bit after flashy guy. sharp dresser. confident in his abilities as a boxer. >> he was good boxer? >> he was. he had some skills. he had some punching power. good hand speed. he won a couple fights in

lowell. he lost in nationals. but to make it to nationals, is a good accomplishment. >> he ended up quitting boxing and i believe that you are under the understanding, because he couldn't represent the united states. is that right? >> for some reason in the second tournament, golden gloves, we couldn't travel with the team. i thought it was because he couldn't represent the united states, but i can't say for sure. >> did he ever talk to you about religion or politics? >> he was definitely big -- the second year i met him, he talked a lot about his faith. just seemed to really be more about what he was about, his character. he spoke to his faith to me many times. the times i saw hum the second time around. he also talked about his wife -- or not his wife, his then fiance and him being in love with her. that's pretty much all we

discussed, was his faith and his family. >> did you notice his mood changing? did he become more aggressive? did he become more fearful of america or authority? >> i just noticed that he seemed more humble. like i said, in 2009 when i met him, he was a really flashy guy, really confident in his skills as a boxer. he wasn't afraid it share that. he even told me he was going to teach me how to box a little. but the next year he just seemed humbled. he talked only about his faith. he talked about marrying this woman. you know, i just got a sense that he was a calmer guy. and really only about his faith. >> what was your reaction when you discovered that he had been involved in this terrible atrocity? >> i naen, mean, i was saddened by the news like everyone else in this city. i was disappointed to know that someone from boxing, from the

golden gloves, from the tournament, could be involved in something like that. it was a tragedy and the only reaction i could have was, you know, a sad feeling for people that were hurt. >> julian pollard, thank you for joining me. joining me now is watertown police chief edward deveau. thank you for your police work. i'm so glad that it ended finally with the capture of these two criminals. in terms of the way it went on, as the weekend on, were there moments when you felt, we're not going it catch this guy? >> well, i mean, we were right at it right from the beginning with our officers there at 12:25 a.m. in the back street of watertown. we didn't have much to think about except defending that neighborhood and those seven officers that first responded just did an incredible job to even get to that point.

the gun fight, you know, the explosions that were going on over there. i couldn't be prouder of our police department and how they handled themselves and just horrific conditions. >> one of the issues that hasn't been explored thoroughly yet because of bigger stuff to talk about yet, let's talk about the firearms that they had. the new york times reported that between them, they had two handguns, a bb gun, and an m-4 combine assault rifle. is that your understanding? >> i'm hearing all kinds of different things. they are still processing the evidence this they took out of there. there is just so much going on. we still have the crime scene on franklin street where the boat is. so for our police department, 65 men and women, it is just overwhelming how much work we have to do. so i know there was firearms up there. i've heard all of those things. i've heard all of the explosives. you know, our officers were in a terrible gun fight and you know,

everything that they can see and remember we still need to put together. >> the the scene with dzhokhar tsarnaev ended in this incredible scene in the boat. and there were thermal images. this is incredible technology you have at your disposal in these situations. >> yes. those are assets that the watertown police department doesn't normally have. but to sit in the command post with the federal agencies, and be able to watch it on a down link right there, as it played out. it was incredible. what technology does for law enforcement now. >> one of the reports that's been repeated quite often the last 24 hours is that, dzhokhar ran over and killed his older brother tamerlan when he got away on that night after the gun fight.

is that your understanding? >> that is exactly my understanding. what occurred is the older brother charged at one of our officers shooting at him. they ended up within ten feet of each other exchanging gunfire. he ran out of ammunition and our officers tackled him, put him to the ground. two other officers were on top of him and that's when the brother came roaring down the street with the car jacked suv with the full intent of killing my police officers. they were lucky enough to dive out of the way. but the brother was run over at that same time. >> your officers, i imagine, none of them have been engaged in anything like this in their lives. how are they all now, now that it's over? >> well, you know, we've been together. we've given them some help, some comfort. it is going to take some time. they just did an incredible job. we're trained as a police department, but what they saw

that early morning is nothing you could prepare for. >> we didn't see any mention today of any criminal complaint surrounding the death of the mit police officer. do you know what the situation is with regards to that? >> no, i don't. we are just -- we are so overwhelmed with everything that happened in watertown, i'm not exactly sure what is happening in cambridge. >> they are also, on that night, various what looked like arrests going on. most notably of a naked man at one stage. people believed to be the bomb suspects. but later turned out not to be. can you shed any light on what is going on then, who these people were? >> sure. you could imagine what is going on. at that time, we had, you know, the one brother down. the other brother escaped. we also had a transit police officer that was shot and was

bleeding out. my offices were completely tied up rendering him aid. they add medic, one of our officers is a medic, trying to get him into the ambulance. at the same time, officers that came in from surrounding communities, had confronted that gentleman. and one thing led to another. and they keyed in on him. the concern was, if he had a device, explosive device. he turned out to be not any individual that we were looking for. but officers needed to be safe at the same time. >> right. chief deveau, let me repeat again, my gratitude for everyone in boston and america, it was an extraordinary effort by your team. remarkable bravery throughout the week. i'm just glad you finally got these people where they should be. one obvious died. but the other one in custody. and hopefully brought to justice. thank you, again. >> thank you, sir. >> when we come back, the

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the boston bombing set off a heated debate about trying terror suspects as an enemy combatant. my next guess is former attorney general under george w. bush. there is question as it whether he should be tried as an enemy combat. what would you have recommended. >> it shouldn't be a debate. the statute setting uch the military commissions that we have now makes it unlawful to try an american citizen before them. end of discussion. >> when you heard the state senate demanding the right to torture this man, what was your reaction to that? >> come on. we don't torture. torture is illegal under the u.s. statute. i know of no instance in which anybody has committed officially stanks sanction editor tour.

>> we know president bush allowed water boarding. at least three times. >> there is torture statute. it is unlawful to impose severe physical or mental pain or suffering. and severe physical pain or suffering isn't defined, severe mental pain and suffering is defined in terms and water boarding is and was used to train u.s. special forces and seals. it is not torture. >> there will be people watching and many americans who feel, i've got no problem with taking this guy, dzhokhar tsarnaev out in the back and rough him up a bit, if it reveals information about potentially other terror attacks he may have knowledge of. what do you say to them, given he is an american citizen who committed a crime on american soil. >> what i say to them is that there -- i mean, the rough stuff is, let's put this aside for a

min put tlp is nothing to stop the president from sending in a group of people, be they fbi or defense intelligence people or military p.eople, to interrogat him any fashion of something illegal in order to get intelligence provided that's not used in connection with his criminal case. they could do that even after he was indicted. >> so they can do that at any time after reading him his miranda rights? >> yes, that's my view. >> so the miranda right changes nothing to interrogate. >> they can use any statements that he makes, that they are not allowed to do. >> he is apparently claiming -- >> they don't need this. they have a mountain of evidence against this guy. >> right, they have the efd it seems against him and his brother for the act they perpetrated. >> correct. >> what i would be curious to find out, is are they part after wider group of either like-minded individuals who have

been coordinated themselves, reading stuff on the internet, videos and so on, which is apparently what he is claiming. whether they are attached to anyone in chechnya, et cetera, et cetera. how far can you go in terms of illiciting that information from someone like him in his position, once he's had his miranda right read to him, as he now has. >> my view is you can go as far as you think it is productive to go. however, i don't think it is productive to question him beyond a few questions about -- unless he is freely talking, which i seriously doubt. i think it is far more productive to exploit things like electronic records. like their personal computers and so forth. bank records. telephone records. that sort of thing will disclose a lot more than he will, i think. >> does he have any kind of defense you could, at the moment, draw up. >> well, obviously the mimitiga

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thank you. a government source claims dzhokhar tsarnaev says his brother was the mastermind and they learned from watching videos on-line. join meg is deputy director of russia and eurasia program of the endowment of international peace. welcome to you, mr. ijaski. let's get into the background of these two brothers. we know they are ethic chechens. we don't believe they ever lived in chechnya, is that right? >> that's right. they may have spent some time in chechnya, but one, they are part of a era with stallin during

world war ii, made an anti-soviet dissocial area, sent them to eurasia where the two brothers grew up. they were are too young to fight in the first chechen war and the second chechen war in 2000. so at best an indirect exposure, hearsay, family memories, things like that. >> we know that tamerlan tsarnaev spent about six months in russia mainly in dagestan where his father is. we know extremists are involved in quite violent attacks against police and civilian targets. what can we read into what he may have experienced in dagestan? >> yeah, this is absolutely key, piers. while it is true that chechen insurgency ended, the violence move need dagestan and it is a place of great unrest. it is a mountainous society.

it is muslim and the experience he had there would have absolutely drummed home for him the suffering of the chechen people as he would have received through family stories. we could put a face on it. there were terror attacks during the time he was there. whether he was glorying in those things or whether he he was making connections to actually islamist insurgence and learning skills, that we don't know but we know that psychologically these things were becoming normal for him. these things were becoming day-to-day occurrences because of where he was living. >> his brother dzhokhar is cl m claiming to the fbi that his brother coerced him into doing it. something you would expect him to say. but also they learned about this, their religious beliefs and how to make bombs from the internet and inspire bid videos. one of the videos there is a link to from tamerlan tsarnaev on-line work, if you like, a guy called doku, a chechen

terrorist, known as their bin laden. tell me about him. >> doku, marv is a bad man. a man shared by the united states and russia on the terrorist list. he has been a pint of agreement for the two countries during very difficult time over the last couple of years. however he denied officially denied on behalf of his movement and himself that the tsarnaev brothers were part of it or they he recruited tamerlan while tamerlan was in dagestan, so at best if we can believe that, and there is no reason he wouldn't have taken credit if he was involved. so i think we are talking inspiration through on-line videos. or perhaps the other way around. tamerlan wanted to be respected by the actual fighters. and this was, he that, his way of doing it. perhaps the next time there was talk that they were going to go back it chechnya soon. perhaps this was his homecoming gift. >> although, again, dzhokhar tsarnaev is claim theg came up

with this on their own and there is no work with any outside organizational or international group, the fact that russian authorities contacted the fbi because they were so concerned about the rising fundamentalist nature of tamerlan's behave your, that's a pretty big red flag to have gone up, isn't it. >>? absolutely. you have to remember the russian authorities are paying attention to everybody on their territory who could be a potential threat. that goes for their cyber space as well. russian internet in russian language, russian sites, it is a different world. the united states, even if we have a window into it, he don't have a handle on it the same way the russian security does. the reason the russians turned us on to this in 2011, shortly after reset, relationship is going well, and there is no further discussion of this guy in 2012 or to 13. especially after spending six months in russia including in dagestan, maybe visiting chechnya, that raises red flags

and sulgts to me we missed a huge opportunity and we probably plised it because of the icy relations between moscow and washington. >> thank you very much indeed for joining me. >> thank you. >> that's for us right now. much more tonight, including my interview with a man who says he was dzhokhar sar inform's best friend. we have more tonight at 9:00 eastern. stay tune foed are more coverage of the boston bombing.

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